The proc rate is flat 100%. Also to consider, all your your kick modifiers work with basic kicks and hence combo fine with pinchnerve. Add it to your form and when your kick hits, they're paralyzed. This guarantees that your 2 nekai hits that follow will both bypass stance and parry. :sighs in a very Eyeore-like fashion:

Open up with a pinchnerve modded basic kick to the gut/chest to start your form, and you can pretty much beat on your victim with impunity. I would murder a small group of orphans for this ability, btw.

Wound based, not 100% (though later on it can seem so). You cannot use pinchnerve with kaiga, kaiga only works on arms and legs.

Give me some credit to know what I am talking about. However, Janalon said she has thoughts, and I am all about Janalons thoughts. She has proven frequently that she is a competent and meticulous envoy with TONS of creativity.

If a suggestion irritates you, comment, but making warrior v monks arguments doesnt do anything. I was not being snarky when I said misinformed (my snarky would have been to say stupid or something), I really meant misinformed. As a bard I used love potion because it was to my benefit, you can get around love potion very easily as a bard, you never have to reject.

Monks vs Warrior is like a Wiccan vs Guardian argument. Are they similar? Yes, but they work very differently. Morbo was telling me about how Ixion could basically perma prone him and got him to like 6K+ wounds on several areas. This does not sound like broken except perhaps OP wise.

Reason for Edit: Summarize more, adjust tone, and add mini log.

P.S. I did not count pinch nerve because its limited, expensive, and we are already noting how we have issues with high ka. And as a note, Janalon is running this show which means shes the judge of things, its not about OP its about balance and shes the ideal moderator here

@Akeley Agreed. Would love to see more combatants mix in base kata affs into combat.

@PhantasmalKiller 100% on a measly 150ka basic kata mod aff doesn't sit well with me. Dunno. Maybe I am missing the big picture here. Seems like it should have half the proc (at least), a higher ka cost, or wound req.

I'd love to see Lerad or the other Monk envoy's response to this one.

Hrm, you are quite definitely right about Pinchnerve, I just tested. I guess it always worked for me because I only use it in "endgame" forms for proning, so wounds are generally already pretty high. Whaddya know.|

Response to ninja edit: was referring to using pinchnerve-kaiga with a punch to start the form, then kaiga-ing after. Just to clarify.

So this is a non-issue?

It's not 100%? Damn, I always thought... but then again, I only used it in late forms too. :shrug:

Well, forms after the 4th hit or so, when I can begin tacking it on gratuitously. It doesn't take much in the way of wounding at all to make it seem like a perfect proc rate. If anything I believe it deserves some extensive testing and if the wounds it takes before it can be proc'd regularly are as low as I seem to recall, then it may need adjusting, because I was dropping it and remember it going through after only a few forms.


Edit: Doing testing to find the wound level it procs at, one sec.

I do know my stuff people

And like I said, show us the ideas Jan! I want to know what you came up withhh and what you are considering so far.

If you're looking for flavor text, how about adding a new scorpion-fu named spec kick, about 150 ka cost, that when targetted to the legs causes a kneel, but with reduced damage and wounding.

QUOTE

Twisting and lashing out with a hooked heel, Janalon impacts the side of your left leg with a precise blow.
You feel your hamstring buckle painfully and you fall to your knees, unable to support your own weight.

Okay, tested. The proc starts at the bottom of medium wounds (in the 400's area) and follows warrior wound proc RNG. Meaning that at 800's (double the bottom of medium but still medium) it's a 50% proc. By the time you hit 1200 it's gonna proc 2/3rds of the time, when you get a solid distance into the middle of heavy range, 3200, you're gonna be proc'ing 7/8ths of the time.

For perspective, when tested, it took Hiriako (a shofangi, not nekotai) four solid combos to get me into the 2K range (80% proc rate), even with me applying health, though the robes on the test character kinda sucked (only 54 cutting).

Janalons concern was that a normal prone has been tried and rejected, so that is why I am intently waiting on her idea. Wow... you had 2K wounds in 4 combos? Were you not applying every chance or what? Because that is incredibly high we do not do that many wounds at once, or do you also not have a shield etc?

No arti shield. Non-arti shields mean nothing since they all got nerfed into oblivion.

Yet another case of people presenting a major problem (arti shields shutting down wound building) and the 'solution' doing nothing to fix it, only screwing over people who were never the problem in the first place.

My nekai stats:
Damage: 110 Precision: 125 Speed: 125

On an entirely unarmoured target:
Nekotai-spec slash = 190
Kick = 550

On a 53/57 robes with 52/52 shield rune:
Nekotai-spec slash = 90
Kick = 330

This was not a test done with quantity, so these numbers are just rough gauges, not averages. To hit 2k wounds on a decently armoured person would take me ~4 full forms with all actions on the same limb (assuming all of them lands) and no health application.

----

A short comment on this post:


Nekotai have 2 kick mods. Dart and vessels. All of our other kick effects are tied to a specific kick action, and is thus not compatible with pinchnerve. We certainly do not have our full repertoire at disposal with pinchnerve.

Despite that, Kata pinchnerve with all of its restrictions and cons is already one of the more useful unspecced monk move where the Nekotai is concerned, alongside vanilla kick, vanilla grapples (hold and lock arm) and hard/soft. The rest, stun, concussion, break, does not synergize well at all simply because they are ALL WOUND DEPENDANT as well as having a momentum cost. To use them in isolation from nekotai specific moves will be pointless, and to use them together with nekotai specific moves risk wiping out too much momentum for little gain and thus resetting the entire fight. This is a problem that other monk guilds face as well. The unspecced kata skill very rarely plays a significant role in monk combat.

I think it's safe to lay the pinchnerve idea to rest. I use it extensively myself, and it is nowhere as good as it has been implied to be. If anything, mantakaya with its 50% rubrate and 50% procrate on a nekai slash is a better choice to put at the start of a form in an attempt to bypass parry/stance. Especially at low momentum, which is what this thread is primarily concerned about.

Janalon is correct in being leery of making a new report to get us a sprawl when there has already been one in the past that was shot down. While a class changes over time and the reasons for which it was shot down may have been changed, in this case that is not so. The major reason why Nekotai are prevented from having an easy sprawl is because of our greenlock. Not because it is "reliable", but rather because our greenlock is meant to have a powercost. To give us an easy sprawl would be to give us a power-less greenlock that may very well be more reliable than the status quo.

A stun may be more acceptable, because it cannot be blocked from being cured by a simple broken leg. I've said I don't think a free stun on demand may be a very good idea, though, I haven't really thought about its consequences on Nekotai combat yet. At the very least, if it has low ka cost (so that it can be utilized in low mo) and no momentum loss, then it would replace every other parry/stance bypassing strategy a Nekotai have at the moment (most of which have been mentioned above, btw). Just considering that alone, I don't think it's a good idea. A variation of the idea, though, (perhaps stun, not on demand, or stun with mo loss, or stun, with some other caveat) can be explored though, and may help Nekotai, especially since stun will be a prone that won't affect our greenlock mechanics.

They say it's easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar. I suppose what I have to say might be made to seem more acceptable if I placed the Nekotai aff reductions ahead of the ka reductions (which, let's not kid ourselves, is a buff of sorts). That aside, I'd to more clearly present my buff end goal before delving into the afflictions that need reducing.

End goal: increase kata diversity in 3mo and 4mo forms. Let me only address 4mo form. Nekotai have two means of mo gain: grapple spam and an agnknek, herb-stack progression. Although we could all argue about Oothai (which I envoyed a reasonable nerf which was rejected), let's set grapple spam aside. This will look exclusively at nekai-based attacks and kicks.

At 4mo, you have a total of 750 ka to split into three actions and modifiers. Let's reverse engineer. Outside 1mo and 2mo, no form should be without 100 ka speed mod. Vanilla kick is another 100 ka. That leaves 550 ka (or 275 split between two nekai-based actions, not accounting for mods) left for a mid tier affliction. A SECOND ALTERNATIVE would be 100 ka speed, with 250 ka spec kick, leaving 400 ka (or 200 split between two nekai-based attacks). So, now let's analyze nekai-based actions and mods options in the 450-550 ka range.

125 angknek + 125 angknek = 250ka, leaving room for a 200ka mod (creehai, shocree) and 100ka nekcree.
125 angknek + 350 angkai = 475ka. You lose the ability to mod (unless nekcree passes the 75ka reduction report)
350 angkai + 350 angkai = 700ka. This is where our problem begins: no ka scale between 125 and 350 ka.

My intent is to reform nekai-based actions and mods to have another 200 to 250ka attack outside angknek. No "new" afflictions. Period. This is about adjusting what we already have.

Let's look at angkai: -1mo eye peck on head, severed phrenic on chest, relapse on gut, pierced limbs on extremities. All this for 350ka. "Simple" solution would be to envoy a request to bring this action down to the specified 200 to 250 ka range. Though, this would mean a Nekotai could feasibly introduce a regen aff from 0mo, and double regen aff by 3mo. Seems out of whack to me. This means I will need to separate the angkai afflictions into two separate actions. It seems fine to leave eye peck, and severed phrenic at 350 ka. I'll address relapsing later...

Angknek's marjoram cured, sliced affs have mildly annoying side effects, some of which tick if not cured in time. This generally isn't a problem since Nekotai can build two sliced afflictions per form (which can outpace curing). Angkai's smoking cured pierced limbs also proc if not cured in time. Although sliced limbs can be stacked on top of pierced limbs, does anyone see any reason why they warrant the 350ka cost? I would like to propose moving pierced limbs off angkai into a new 200ka actions. Although it would offer some more variability, I don't foresee this move altering Nekotai combat or curing strategies. Not sure if this move would have more serious implications. There are many brilliant thinkers that could analyze this move. Someone please kindly tell me if this is OP. Another thought is this AND reduce angkai to 325 for more precise stacking with angknek (a cumulative ka cost of 450 instead of 425).

Next look is at Angkhai. For 550 ka you gain relapsing. This is also redundant with 350 ka angkai (no H) gut. An addition of 200 ka only gives the benefit of increased body part targets. It could synergize well with a Nekotai poison strategy, but is too costly to get used only to induce relapse. However, the cost is justified given -1mo slit throat or -2 tendon (per leg) if induced at +4mo. To reduce this redundancy, I'd like to see relapse placed into 350 ka angkai limbs (to account for pierced limbs moving to a new 200 ka action). I have very mixed feelings about this. Buff, yes. But it also removes the insta relapse from our slit lock. This could be a significant reduction in the event that relapse is preventing green from curing the necessary affs on a heavily poisoned target.

Let me talk about my ideas for kick ka costs and vessels nerf in the next thread. Please, directly critique these ideas. I need to know whether I am off course in my thinking.

Part of the issue arises from the fundamental reality that if you want one of these lower mo forms you desire, used... they'll either need to be inherently superior, or -add- to the superiority of what you already have available. Given the superiority of your 'grapplespam', I'm a bit afraid of anything that would be able to supplant it.

That's probably one of my biggest issues here. Either Oothai needs to be pushed up in weight, to be replaced by other lower mo abilities, or the low mo abilities you develop must either be -better- than the admittedly already an issue Oothai, or go unused.

Sure!



Actually 2 herb affs per form can be cured before we can hit again (instantly on the hit, another 1.5s later). I have my concerns about pierced limbs but it could just be me so I will let it go. I think this is fine as you are still limited to the 2 herb affs from hands regardless of their cost.



I actually do not think that relapsing will ever be worth 350 ka when you could just use poison instead. For 350 ka you would expect more. Did you also plan to reduce the ka cost of Angkhai with the loss of relapsing? As it is this changes the grounds of the greenlock but nothing so far has made much to change our actual offense, most of your changes will not help before mo4 thus far that I can see, though I could be missing something.



Then suggest a replacement, because right now that would remodel all of Nekotai combat early (it is the vast majority of our early combat). I really kind of wish we had more of a tahtetso build up, where you can adjust things by adding modifiers to readily improve your offense and your goals. Very nice, they have my envy.

By the way, example of why you do not need "superior":
Telekinesis has trip which stuns and prones, if they arent prone at least. Psychicfist CAN stun but can readily be used for broken ribs, people have used both depending on the intent. Why would it be shocking if we used alot of herb things instead of oothai if the goal is affliction stacks instead?

Thats just a quick example but I hope you get what I mean it need not be "superior".

Explain post your concern here or in PM before I put myself out there for envoy scrutiny.

Also thinking of dozens more ideas for nerfs and adjustments. Would be nice to have active envoys outside Shofangi/Nekotai. Please contact me if you are an envoy and would like to help me submit Nekotai nerfs while I work on the adjustments.

EDIT: was referring to active "monk" envoys.

I have double checked the concern, the information was false. Pierced limbs do not increase balance loss on the limb. Also I am standing with pierced limb and no prone tic standing or moving. So it simply hinders movement with the "You slowly hobble" message. Concern withdrawn.

We already get punctured chest as an after-effect of Sprongma's collapsed lung. Since Sprongma collapsed lung/punctured chest could be combined with Angkai's severed phrenic, I'd prefer any unnecessary overlap by envoying a swap out/swap in affliction exchange at this time. I'd rather invest my energies in envoying changes into how afflictions hit (like reducing/eliminating endurance loss).

actually sprngma chest gives Collapsed Lungs which gives punctured lungs after it is cured